Captain TOKAM's Log

[TOKAM]

It hasn't really gone anywhere yet (threads also have a tendency of getting de-railed even faster than they do here), but if you still want the link, I'll post it.

[killerinstinct]

Hmm... nah. If things get interesting (as in, funny-in-a-stupid-way), then post the link, please.

[TOKAM]

Well, there were four pages even before I got involved, so it might be worth a lookthrough anyway.

thependragonadventure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63824&start=0

Note that both sides are being stupid, not just one side or the other. Also note that my post is one of the last ones on the thread, and each thread-page is fifty posts long.

EDIT: Also note that there are no avatar size limits, that BBCode has been disabled on the forum, and that trolls have pretty much free reign.

[killerinstinct]

The avatar size limit wasn't too much bothersome, but the BBCode being disabled is a bit annoying. Still managed without getting my eyes to hurt too much, though.

Damn, it's so long, though. I've just read the first page, and it's so filled of stupidity, it's funny. So many things they say is just so wrong and doesn't make sense, from both sides. Not to mention that some of them have schizophrenic way of typing; meaning, making long-ass paragraphs without punctuation and terrible spelling.

[TOKAM]

Yeah, well, that's GenCom for you. It was like that five years ago, too.

*cough* I was, erm, one of those schizo-posters, myself. How I sorely lament those days.

[killerinstinct]

Heh, so it never changed? How silly.

You? Schizo-poster? lmao, I can hardly imagine that.

[TOKAM]

Well, it didn't used to be quite the den of stupidity that it is now, but there were more than 200 regular posters, by my estimates. It got pretty crazy. Not quite so many trolls back then, but the ones we had were worse than what it's got now (the trolls are the reason BBCode and guest-posting are disabled). So yeah, it hasn't changed much.

Yeah. Not quite so bad, but I had no concept of paragraphs, and I used the bane of every internet-goer's existence. Yes, I once used. . .

*Dun, dun DUUUUUN!*

Text talk.

Luckily, I grew out of it pretty quickly.

[killerinstinct]

Ah. Interesting.

Seriously? I still can't imagine that. I never used text talk Then again, I was stupid in a different way.

Hmm. I've a sudden urge to respond to those idiots.

[TOKAM]

Up to you, I suppose. Just bear in mind that if you seriously want to respond to them, you'll have to create a screenname, and that if you do ever join, the e-mail verification has been on the fritz lately.

[killerinstinct]

Hmm. Might not be worth it, after all. I'm not too sure they'll understand, anyway.

[TOKAM]

A lot of them are at least a little smarter than they let on. The idiots-to-smart people ratio isn't all that different from what you'd find on a lot of other sites, it just seems like it is because there's a lot more people in general on the site. You want a site where no one understands what you're trying to say? Just look at YouTube comments.

[Daryl]

Heh, since your post the only posts seem to have been Zelda-related.

Really though, religious debates get old after you've seen a couple. It's basically people saying the same thing over and over again, because there's not much to really be said on the topic. You've seen two or three, you've seen them all.

[killerinstinct]

I'm aware that there could be stupider, and that it only seems so stupid because of the large number of people there. But even so, would I want to waste my time creating an account, typing up a response, only to get a lot of stupid responses? Maybe not. Or maybe so.

By the way, I may have an answer to your question, or at least, it'll make you ponder. It was something my cousin told me, and although neither she nor I have thought enough about it, it's still an interesting thought: all forms of deities man ever believed in could be one and the same. Like, if you believe in God, it's like believing in Zeus, Odin, or any other deity.

[Daryl]

In that case, which set of beliefs about that god are correct? Does it tow the sun across the sky, raise our crops, torture humans, or make rivers obey the laws of gravity?

Also lol@the people who believed in like 30 gods, when they were really the same thing!

[killerinstinct]

Maybe there's no set of beliefs that's correct. Maybe you find it on your own when you have faith. Discover it on your own. You know, sort of like a divine gift.

[TOKAM]

@ki: Well, I would, but that's because I'm a self-admitted wanky bastard who enjoys stirring up arguments.

Also, I've followed that line of reasoning a time or two myself. And to me, it makes sense. I also took it a step further. If God (or whatever you want to call him) could assume so many forms throughout so many religions, why couldn't he assume multiple forms at the same time? It's not like there's never been precedent for things like that in religious texts or anything.

Kind of explains why I choose to believe in the abstract god rather than any religious personification of the being, come to think of it.

[killerinstinct]

lol. At least you're a logical one. And not a schizo-poster.

But what if it wasn't God who assumed so many forms? What if it was man who gave him so many forms, when God is one and the same? That'd mean that God was (and still is) misunderstood.

[Daryl]

If you found it out by faith, though, wouldn't a significant portion of the population have found it out by now, enough to form a more concrete religion than Deism, which doesn't draw away people like Kev?

Regarding your last theory, about man giving god many forms, it's obvious enough that a significant portion of the religious population don't understand what god is according to their own religion.

[TOKAM]

That touches on one of my more. . . Shall we say, eccentric beliefs. I personally believe that if even one god is real, there is a possibility that many others are real.

Of course, I also believe in the theory of the multiverse, and that characters that are fictional in our universe are very real figures just a few 'verses over, so take any of my beliefs with a grain of salt.

[killerinstinct]

@daryl: The problem is, so many people are brainwashed to believe what their religion is saying. And you just said it; a lot of "religious" people don't understand what (or who) god is.

@kev: A multitude of deities could be true. But, if a deity is omnipresent and omniscient, then that deity alone should be able to control the world on his own, wouldn't he? And if there were several deities, wouldn't there be possible conflicts between them? They are deities, after all, and they all have supreme power; one alone with that power can more than control our little world, if he wanted.

[TOKAM]

The way you hear most people tell it, their god(s) are kind and loving. Wouldn't open warfare for control over this insignificant little rock sort of go against that image? That's assuming that they aren't working together to run the place, too.

Going off on a different tack, couldn't all the religious crusades and holy wars throughout history be interpreted as the different gods vying for power through mortal pawns? I mean, you get two omnipotent and omniscient forces working directly against each other, you've got a textbook case of unstoppable force versus immovable object. They'd have to work through others to achieve any sort of victory.

Whoo. Getting kind of sacriligious, here. Not that I really care, but still.

[killerinstinct]

To be honest, when I was taught the crusades in school, back in tenth grade, my history teacher said that the pope, who had much power over a country, started the crusade in the name of god, but was actually doing it because it benefits him a lot. At least, that's what my vague memories tell me. If I had my tenth grade history text book, I would have explained it better.

What I mean is, I don't think crusades/holy wars are proof of the existence of several gods fighting for power. I think this is caused by man's own desire, greed, or thirst for vengeance.

But yeah, forgot the mention of how loving and understanding god is. Shows how religious I am, haha. Anyways, if this is the case, and they're omnipotent and omniscient, then that would mean that some gods will be deemed useless. I mean, we've got several gods, and they're all the same. Loving, understanding, wise, possessing supreme power... What's the multitude for, then? There would only be one taking care of us (since a deity is powerful enough to do so, hence him being a deity), so what are the others exactly for?

[TOKAM]

Yes, but there's no way to be sure of that, any more than there is to be sure that god(s) exist at all.

Plenty of other planets out there in the multiverse, and some of them might be populated, but not have gods of their own (since some claim that God created the whole universe himself). I'm sure they could find a niche somewhere, even if it's not here on this planet we call Earth.

Just as an FYI, I play fast and loose with the "rules" of reality sometimes (and canon, as some of my roleplaying partners have discovered). If I start getting too spiritual or "out there", let me know. I might try to rein it in, or I might not.

[killerinstinct]

I don't mind you getting too spiritual or anything. The reason I'm questioning your belief isn't because I'm against it or I refuse to believe in the existence of several gods or anything of the sort; in fact, I'm at a perfect loss as to what to believe in, and haven't found any track on which I'd like to walk on when it comes to belief. I'm simply trying to contradict you because I'd like to see how solid your belief is, and how you'd counter it. In a way, I'm asking you to tell me what you believe in in details so I could ponder on it myself, and maybe follow a similar way of thinking (if I find it plausible).

Anyways...

But if god created the whole universe, then surely god is capable of controlling the whole universe by himself. No need for another deity to do so, right?

[TOKAM]

Well, that's good to know. I won't hold anything back, then.

He probably could, but would he want to? I'd imagine that it would get somewhat tedious to try to keep track of an entire universe, to be honest. Outside of that, it'd be a good way to keep the peace between omnipotent figures. Each god or pantheon takes X amounts of inhabited planets, nobody gets left out, and they're all happy.

[killerinstinct]

But a deity possesses powers beyond our imagination. Otherwise, he wouldn't be a deity, would he? Besides, if he created the entire universe on his own, proving that he has tremendous powers, then he could control it on his own with ease.

[Daryl]

Where did the deity live before it made the universe? =/

[TOKAM]

But the question still remains: Would he WANT to? When you create something, do you always want to sit there and watch it, micromanaging every little thing? Or do you sometimes just want to sit back and watch everything play out, even though you have the power to control things directly? Some believe that God started off the universe with the Big Bang, and then he just let everything run its course, not interfering, just watching. But what if he wants to watch something more in-depth - Like Earth, f'rinstance - and while he's paying more attention to one planet, the others all sort of go down the drain? That's where the other gods come in.

I'm not explaining myself very well, but I hope I'm getting the point across, just a little. I'm also still building my own belief system, something that makes sense in my mind, so everything is still rather rough around the edges. As of this moment, all I know is that: I believe there are other universes out there, not just ours; I believe that if the door is opened to one god, it is also opened to others; and every universe in the grand multiverse has its own gods as well.

[killerinstinct]

Supposedly he always has existed; god was never born, and will never die. There was no beginning to him; he has always been there.

[killerinstinct]

@kev: I see your point. And I guess we could never be sure that there's one god or several ones. But let us say that God did create the whole universe, and is not controlling it entirely; just sitting back and watching, as you said. Letting things unfold on its own. If he's going to let things go on its own, then he doesn't really need to watch anything in-depth. It is going on its own course, after all. It's present everywhere; in nature, animals, and even humans. In humans, it's what we call free will.

So if everything is working on its own free will, and god wants to let it this way, then god isn't required to look into something in-depth, and can thus look after other things, and maybe even after other universes. Maybe play a role here and there, but not completely taking control, and not following every little thing (and tracing a path to it).

Argh, I think I'm beginning to sound confusing. Either that, or I'm just confused on my own.

(Also, sorry for the double-post)